MOTORS
Is a Mabuchi S can a "racing" motor? It has
been discovered that this is the motor in the Scalextric cars
that we
have. I want to say E-17 but I have conflicting data so that model
number is a bit elusive to me. And also, if it is NOT a racing
motor, can it be exchanged for a "real" racing motor
like a Cheetah? I printed the motor list from a while ago, but
it doesn't clarify just what qualifies as a "racing"
motor. To try and be clear (for those who think I'm confused),
a while back we dabbled in HO. It was found that the Chassis is
a key component. Life-Like chassis could not be altered as well
as a Tyco 440 X2 or an AFX G-Plus chassis for example. Then, as
time went by, we found out even MORE stuff. Different armatures,
Neodymium magnets, motor magnets, traction magnets, more amps
from the transformer to move the cars now with "silicone"
tires...AUGHH!! It was becoming too much! And above all else,
there were the "collectors" who would try and bargain
with you for a different car like the Pancake motor chassis from
the "Model Motoring" days. Well, to make a long story
short, it was thought better if we went to something more "simpler"
as in 1/32nd scale.More people were involved. The cars were not
called "pocket rockets". The detail was immaculate.
And, above all else, you could see them better as they sped along
the track. Back to speed; Can the motor be upgraded like the HO
cars or is Scalextric a"one-motor" car.
If you consider the engine in your lawnmower a racing
motor, then yes. If not, then no. The "S" can is the
lowest common denominator for a slot car motor since the Eldon
motor of the 1960's. A "Cheetah" is not a "real"
racing motor either, but is definitely better. However, you cannot
get one anymore because they have pretty much sold out and Mabuchi
is not willing to make new ones with the vent holes. So get a
"Falcon" that is exactly the same, and probably better.
Mr. P
There are many factors that make one motor better than
another. You asked about motor windings and wire gauge that make
a difference and what are they. It comes down to the size diameter
of the wire and the amount of wire on
a pole. The wire diameter determines how much current can flow
through the wire. The larger the diameter the more electrons that
can pass through the wire. The length of the wire or the number
of turns wrapped around the pole also determines how much resistance
for how long the electrons find to passing through that length
of wire. The shorter the
length of wire the less resistance to flow. So the first example
we will use is 35 AWG gauge wire. That size is
determined by a set standard of the electrical industry. American
Wire Gauge (I think) it's been a while.#35AWG is smaller in diameter
than say 23AWG wire the smaller the diameter the less electron
flow or current draw. (amperage) Now wire Length determines for
how long that amount of electrons is impeded from flowing through
that length of wire. 100 turns impedes flow longer than 20 turns.
It is a longer length of wire to traverse. So a motor wound with
#35AWG wire with 100 turns will be a much slower motor than one
with #23AWG wire with only 20 turns. The 23 AWG wound motor will
be a lot faster motor. Now that said, there are consequences to
this. The #35 wire will be a
cooler motor to run, with low rpms and would be found in maybe
some of the Euro slot cars coming in. The 23 wire motor would
be a real handful and be found in "a Grp 7" motor and
would produce a lot of heat and rpm. It would draw a very heavy
current flow especially on start up. That is a result of a large
diameter wire for a short length of travel. Now this all just
the basics, many other factors come into play with the slot car
motor. Things such as the length, diameter and material the armature
stack is made from. Also to consider is the can type, size, thickness
of material, motor magnets, size magnets, material used. Then
location in the can, distance of the magnet from the surface of
the arm etc.Also to be considered is the amount of power available
to feed the motor it an electron supply.
The 35 wire motor can run on much less power that that 23 wire
motor. Hope this helps a bit. it is a very rough and quick breakdown
of what happens in your slot motor. It becomes somewhat of a
real science as you progress from class car to class car as to
the performance you want or need. I am sure others can add to
this or correct me if needed. Have at it.
Well, you didnt say WHICH mabuchi you considered standard,
so I will try to wander into things.
1)Mabuchi FC cans, like the Ninco NC1 are 13mm high,
with an extra 2mm for the brushes and lead wires. The FK cans,
like the pla fit Fox, with the leads coming out the END of the
motor are 14mm high, but can often give more room because of the
brush motunting. Internally, everything is the same, so nothing
prevents you from putting the arm you want into the can you want.
My Coopers have room for these motors, so I am not sure what happened.
Well, unless you are using a frame that is UNDER the motor. Not
sure.
2)old 13uos like the Johnson 111 that used to be in
the Scaley cars, and the X88 that used to be in the mono F1s are
13mm high with endmount leads. Again.....
3)it just occoured to me that you might be referring
to using a 16d or something.... Which are currently 17 mm high.
See above.
4) modern motor availability... Dunno. You might consider
a Hot HO motor like some of the BSRT replacement motors for the
Tyco 440.
Fate
Actually, if you will compare the arms from, say, a
Ninco and a Fox, you will find that, despite the different brush
layout, the arms are constructed and timed exactly the same. The
slot on the com is in the center of the stack. If you think about
it, it makes sense that they make different cans for different
mounts and applications but only one ARM. Most of the time, the
differences between arms is the wind, often one being a de-wind
of the other. So, it IS and option to get a little room by using
the FK can ala Fox, Falcon,Cheetah, lil Ripper, and a milder wind
out of, say, a NC1, Rabbit
or EVo or Scaley. Fly is a good choice usually having the better
molded com.
Fate
Phil Kalbfell wrote:
Fate: Did you measure
the resistance of the windings? I have found that the Evo's seem
to have about one ohm less resistance! This may be due to better
contact on the commutator lugs on the two I measured. The Evo's
that I have see certainly seem to perform marginally better but
they are all way behind the Rabbit that costs half as much. What
we need is a disabled Rabbit that we can all use for a "Vintage"
Class racing. The Sakatsu 200 is probably the best for this class
of car.
Phil
Phil, If you want a
disabled a Rabbit or any other low amp motor for that matter just
put a resistor in series with the motor. Choose the resistor ohms
based on how much you want to "disable it". Around 1ohm
is a good start. Take your operating voltage x the motors current
draw x 1.4 and that will give you a good safe watt rating that
will stay cold. You can go to under x 1.4 to x1 if you don't need
to be mil spec(for Rocky).
Jim
Ya'll know one of my
pet hobby horses is the funning specs I see published about the
motors we buy. "FICTION" I keep yelling, then people
go on like nothing was said arguing if X is better than Y because
it has more RPM printed on the label. Well, it happend to me again.
Scott wants me to build a Soveren 32 GT car. And I have been casting
around buying parts. Sigh. He indicated that either the NC1 or
Pro-Slot evo1 were legal motors for the class. Confused me, truth
in advertising time.The Evo says 18,000 RPM at 12 volts The NC-1
says 14,000 RPM at 13.5. If these numbers had meaning, the Evo
ought to be a lot faster. Well, near as I can tell from taking
both apart is that the only difference between the motors is the
LABEL Otherwise, they are mechanically the same, same wire, wind,
stack, endbell, can and magnets. Just different labels.]
Fate
The best inline bracket
for slot cars whether 1/32nd or 1/24th is the Inslot bracket made
by Inslot. They make them for both the the stupid heavy 16d motor
as well as the nicely balanced Pla-Fit or the new Falcon motor.
There is a difference between the brackets, so make sure you specify
which you want for best fit. This is the link to their website.
I have used the brackets several; times with great success. They
are strong like a bull and can be driven over by a truck and not
be damaged. Check them out at.
http://www.inslotracing.com/
For sidewinder brackets
I either make my own, or use the rear sections of the Parma I-32
chassis or the rear of the Proslot Demon chassis or the mounts,
after cutting them off the original chassis. Works well for me
when in a hurry. The arm must have the correct timing for the
can the brushes are in different locations in the cans with the
end bell fitting inside the can ie NC2 Fox etc!
Larry S.
Actually, if you will
compare the arms from, say, a Ninco and a Fox, you will find that,
despite the different brush layout, the arms are constructed and
timed exactly the same. The slot on the com is in the center of
the stack. If you think about it, it makes sense that they make
different cans for different mounts and applications but only
one ARM. Most of the time, the differences between arms is the
wind, ften one being a de-wind of the other. So, it IS and option
to get a little room by using the FK can ala Fox, Falcon,Cheetah,
lil Ripper, and a milder ind out of, say, a NC1, Rabbit or EVo
or Scaley. Fly is a good choice usually having the better molded
com.
Fate
John McLennan writes:
Hi, I am currently working on a beautiful Cooper Climax from Dave
Cooper: and I find that standard Mabuchi type cans are a tad low,
indeed sticking out from below the body by more than 5mm. What
options are available? Alternatively what else will fit under
there?
Cheers, John
John: I have several
of these F1 bodies and most of them are very difficult to get
the motor right up under the body.The Cooper and Eagle being the
most difficult. One chassis I built I used spring wire each side
of the motor and allowed the motor to hand below
the chassis and body(like a Scalex). I think it looks crap like
this. The other two cars I am still building will be using HO
style motors,one from a Polistil car and one from a Pink Kar.The
Ninco Go Kart motor is similar.These both will probably need to
be rewound to get some more performance. I also have a car running
using a Mabuchi motor from a CD player! This motor is 15.5 x 12
x 27 mm but has not
got carbon brushes,but they seem to be lasting OK so far.This
would be by far the best choice if I could find a local supply
for these here in Australia. The biggest problem with these and
the HO motors is the shafts are only i.5 mm dia so the pinions
have to be bushed witha piece of rass tube and drilled to 1.5mm.
If you come up with any other answers please let me know as I
still have several more cars to build.
Phil
I would offer a couple
options to you on this. Just as the Evo 1 and NC1 are the same
motors, and the Rabbit, Carrera motors are identical, so, the
MRRC, Scaley, and Fly motors are identical. Well, sort of. The
fly has a much better commutator, and that should
translate into a longer life! Without taking them apart, you can
do a whole stack ohm measure and compare(I dont want to go into
parallel resistor stuff right now, I think most people don't want
to disconnect the stack for an "accurate" measurement
then try to solder again to that cheap com), whole stack, the
Rabbit measures 3 ohm, the Fly 5. Which would qualify, I think,
as a "slow" rabbit. It is easy to reverse the shaft
on the fly motor to be can drive(Soveregn /32 does this all the
time with NC1s). OH, go to the electronics store looking for the
small black diodes with a silver band that Professor Motor controller
uses. These are only rated to 3 amps, but if you have a car pulling
more than 3 amps.... Anyway, these things are a buck apiece. Just
put, oh, 3 on each lead between the motor and the car. This drops
the voltage to the motor by .7volts per diode. Without limiting
amperage draw. Cheap, easy and removeable. On this last, Well,
I cheated! The locals who freak out that I can cheat without being
caught, have a strange rule that all 12 classes must
use NC1s. They put NC1s into Fly Cars and everything. One of their
group still talks to me and has an electronics background(ok he
is an engineeer for a security company). I reminded him of what
he knew, and he found that he could put 4 diodes in the circuit,
2 on each lead) and the car performed as if it was a Ninco (well,
a little better, but they TRUST him). No one has looked at this
point! If you wanted, you could put a slide switch on the outside
like a Carreara car, to switch in the diodes so that the car would
still perform
for the experienced racers, but be downrated for the novices.
Fate
3 amps is probably
overkill - a 1 amp diode will hold the current for anything like
a Scaly or Fly motor - should be able to buy a bag of ten for
$1
Hi
I would have agreed
with you once. But in recent times I have had all sorts of people
report all kinds of high amp draws to me that seem amazing. I
don't think anything I built would need more than 1 ampere, but
some people tell me they cannot run a fly car on 3 amps!
ARRGH!
The second reason for
mentioning the 3 amperes is that everyone with a Slot Works or
Professor Motor controller has SEEN the diode and would recognize
it by site. The others...
Fate
TIMING ARMS
Here is a rough drawing
of a simple arm timing setup with only the Arm showing the stack
and the commutator relationship to each other. It shows the arm
from the commutator end and the timing is set for the arm to rotate
CCW (counter clock wise) viewed from this end. The motor in question
though will be rotating actually in CW direction when viewed from
the can end of the motor or arm. Just wanted to show Tropi how
the timing of the stack and comm related where it starts from
and where it goes to. With just a 10 degree advance positively.
The other direction would of course be the negative time version.
Yeah I know it all sounds like mud. This is not the timing found
on Cheetah/Fox/Falcon motors though. That is a whole other style
of timing and direction. Next on the list of things to do.
This drawing shows
the brushes added in for clarification.
This drawing adds the
end bell/brush timing effect on motors.
These drawings were
in response to a question about timing of the comm. The first
picture is just one way of timing the comm to the arm stack. It
is very basic. The arm timing determines the advance the arm sees
and basically determines which way the arm will turn to the best
advantage in the motor. Which affects RPM, torque and brakes of
the particular motor. I did not show the brush relationship in
this drawing to keep it simple. The brushes would be shown in
this picture to be in the center of the arm, horizontally on each
side. or at 90 degrees to a vertical line through the center of
the arm. Now by rotating the brushes equally in one direction
or the other, that will also advance or retard the arm timing.
the next two pictures depict other ways of timing and arm. Like
a twister style motor uses that form of timing adjustment to either
advance or retard the arm which will usually have the timing advanced
on it by the comm position. Say the motor comes with a arm timed
at 45 degrees and you find you don't have enough brakes or it
has too much top end for your tracks straight length. So with
the twister motor you can use the adjustable endbell to retard
the 45 degrees back to about 38 degrees which will change the
brakes, torque, and RPM. Or say you find you are a little short
on RPM, you can advance the endbell to say 52 degrees. You would
gain RPM, lose some torque and brakes. This still does not explain
the Cheetah/Fox/Falcon style of timing completely that will take
another drawing and description of what they are doing with what
I believe is a star type wind with timing built into the end bell.
The pinion and gear
direction/location are basically determined by the motor timing
you are using. If the motor is really and truly at zero advance
in timing the gearing could be on either one side of the pinion
or the other and not make much difference. But if the motor has
any built in advance timing there will be one side the gear should
be on to take advantage of the better RPM. This will usually be
apparent when setting up the motor on a power pack, at the bench
if not certain when you buy it.
Also when using the
home set car motors they will be determined by which end of the
motor the manufacturer has installed the motor in the chassis.
Hopefully they know what kind of timing their motor has or not.
I think most of the motors used are supposed to be very close
to zero degree timing but as the quality control is so bad the
motor could be timed 10-15 degrees in either direction. Which
determines in many cases why the identical type motors will have
a few very fast ones and a few that are not as fast. Some got
a bit more advance timing and the others may have gotten a bit
of retarded timing when assembled. Which makes getting a good
home set motor a real crap shoot as far as performance goes. Of
course your RPM may vary and ETC. Many other varibles are at work
in the slot cars performance you get.
Larry Shepard
A brief histery eer,
history:
1957: Scalex introduces
commercial slot car sets. The motors are ugly tin cans made in
Japan.
1958-1963: all kinds of model train motors are converted to slot
racing use, by Pittman and others. Scalextric introduces the pole
motor in their line in 1960. Scalextric used their own open pole
motors for a long time, then went to Chinese copies of FT16 motors
in about 1967/68, then by 1977, Chinese copies of the "other"
Mabuchi, the narrower FT13UO, a motor originally used in the Monogram
Midget and 1/32 scale Formula One cars. Now they seem to have
adopted the same Mabuchi "S" can as the others...
1964: A Japanese company
by the name of Mabuchi introduces a line of specific slot racing
motors, the FT16 surviving as the most popular by 1966.
1967: American companies MURA, Russkit and Champion, fed up with
the intransigeant Japanese attitude of Ken Mabuchi, make their
own motors using the same overall sizing as the FT16, now commonly
called "16D".
1968: The industry collapses, leaving a wake of bankrupt businesses
and millions of dollars of unsold inventory, much of it dumped
for tax advantages.
1970: Surviving micro-companies Mura and Champion down-size their
motors and introduce the "C" cans, 1/16" lower
and narrower than the FT16 ("16D") copies. These take
over the racing scene and are also used in RTR cars produced in
small quantities by surviving manufacturers.
1977: As Mura and Champion cannot produce a low-cost version of
their motors, Parma goes to China and has a "16D" sized
motor produced for their RTR production.
1988: Champion is sold and no longer produces motors. It now markets
re-badged MURA motors.
1996: Champion produces RTR cars with Parma motors.
1996: Mura is sold and stops the production of the "C"
can, while producing similarly sized evolutions of this motor.
2001: Mura ceases all activity and assests are acquired by Koford.
The "D" can
is now only made by Parma. What they now call the "C"
can is sized 1/16" lower and narrower than the "D",
and can use smaller armatures. The "C" can is also a
bit large for (but will fit in) many 1/32 scale cars, is way too
large to fit in the Marconi Minis, and those come with a HO-sized
ST020 motor anyway.
All the smaller motors
used in today's 1/32 model racing cars are based on the Mabuchi
"S" can, which is a rather cheap one-time use throw-away
piece that costs the manufacturers about a buck. The "C"
can is much larger and really not as suitable for home-racing
use as the Mabuchi "Cheetah" and its clones, sized like
the "S" motors, but now no longer available. These have
now been upstaged by the recently introduced "Falcon",
a clone made in China, and sized like the "S" cans but
using can-drive. They can fit in most home racing cars but will
need some alterations of the plastic motor mounts. They have nearly
twice the power of a "S" series can except for the specialized
ones like the Slot.It V12, that can compete almost on equal footing
with the Falcons. The Falcon has approximately the same performance
as a Parma "Deatth Star" 16D, but in a much smaller
and lighter package. The ST020 was the Mabuchi appellation for
the HO sized motor first found in the TycoPro, and then adopted
as the standard size for most HO can-type
motors up to this day. Marchon is a company making ST020 sized
motors, and the armatures and magnets of the Super G-Plus by Tomy
fit in one of those
cans.
Mr. P
I ran into a problem
today and came up with a solution. The solution is so obvious
that I am certain it has been described (and perhaps even commercialized)
before but - there may be other innocents out there like me so:
I was repairing a car
that had chewed up and spit out its gearset (and they were Slot-It
gears, not easy to do) I replaced them with a steel pinion and
bronze crown gear (64 DP), shimmed them carefully for clearance
and tried a gentle rotation by hand - terrible! They were rough,
stiff and uneven! I checked the clearance, checked the axle for
straightness and the bearing for alignment - all O.K.
maybe a bad gearset - tried another - same result. So I sat and
stared - and looked carefully and finally saw that the (soldered
in) motor was mis-aligned - it was square with the chassis and
axle but the motor shaft was not in the same plane as the axle
- i.e. the motor shaft, extended, would not pass through the center
of the axle. - bad business. I whipped out my motor soldering
iron (150*
watt American Beauty truncheon) and made several attempts to
correct matters. Critical alignment of a hot motor and a hot
chassis with the one hand that is not holding the iron is dicey.
After several less than successful attempts, I devised the following:
Took a small block of brass - about 3/8" X 3/8" X 1/4"
and drilled it through the long dimension with a 3/32 drill and
then cross drilled it through the other long dimension 0.78".
I then drilled down into the two bores and tapped these holes
for 1/72 set screws. Pass an axle blank through one bearing, the
block and then the second bearing. Lock with set screw. Insert
motor shaft into the 0.78" bore and lock. Swing motor down
into place, center it and solder. - Voila (and the gears worked)
* Why such a big iron
- doesn't it overheat the parts - no - quite to the contrary,
the big iron and its big tip can deliver heat very rapidly so
the area of interest is heated to soldering temperature before
the rest of the piece gets warm
EM
Congratulations, Alan,
you have just described a Eurosport F1 motor instalation block.Eurosport
guys have been using similar devices for years. Some are even
two piece devices,that are held together(top and bottom)with allen
bolts,so that when done,you simple remove the bolts,separate the
two pieces,and as you say,Viola,instant soldered in properly alligned
motor. Although,I rarely set my motors centreline,in the same
plane as the axle,usually lower by up to.080,to get the motor
as low in the chassis as possible.It does take some carefull running
in of the gearset to do this,but it does work. My last years Proxy
Porsche was done this way,and ran very
smoothly(still does),I think it is closer to.090 out of allignment.
Also,gotta agree with you on Hot Irons doing less heat damage,I
use an 80 Watter,and crank it up to 130plus volts on my handy
dandy Variac.
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